Pagans bashing Christians.
Apr. 3rd, 2006 01:29 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
2eclipseSo in another post, ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
sidhebear asked me a damned interesting question after eltanin brought up pagans bashing christians and i responded. my thanks to him for provoking the hell out of me and making me think.
and the truth is that i had never really thought about it before. and wasn't aware that i had said anything about it to him. i was just aware of feeling left out and sad (in fact sat. night was the first time i realized other christians were feeling the same way i did). but i put together an answer that was too long to post and so it is going here instead.
um....i don't want to name names. i don't think it is fair, because i don't think a)that it is any ONE person or b) that they even realize they've said something hurtful. for the most part i do not feel people are criticizing ME personally. for the most part. i DO hear people criticizing christians and when they do it generally, i speak up. i make corrections and say "hey that isn't all of us". and they back off. but i still feel the hurt of what they said, because most of the time i don't believe they have been convinced at all. the most painful attacks i have experienced have come from people you don't know.
i agree that mostly it is EXACTLY what you say - people who have been hurt, fighting back. but even though i am not a fundamentalist, i feel responsible for my blind and ignorant christan brothers and sisters. i DO consider myself my brother's keeper, and while i personally do not bash pagans or gays, i feel guilty for what other christians do. we are one body in christ and when part of that body is sick, the whole body suffers.
as to what i have felt personally besides fundamentalist bashing (which i myself have engaged in from time to time i am sorry to say), there are two main issues, some of which is merited, but hurts no less for it.
A)dismissing me/excluding me because i am christian. often this is about the fact that i am in seminary as much as because i am christian. christians who are just easter/xmas types are less threatening than someone who actually has real faith. this has happened a lot. often by strangers, often when i just meet people. many people choose not to know me, trust me, or hear me.
B)thinking all christians are represented by fundamentalism.
if they have a reason to get to know me, it tends to go away, but mostly people don't ask me what i really think. they assume "she thinks the christian thing" and assume they know what that is. this is painful because friends do it without realizing they do it. this is especially true because most of my friends have been deeply hurt by christians and i find them acting from time to time as though i shared the views of those that hurt them.
christians don't believe in magic. christians aren't really connected to the earth. christians are materialistic. christians are all hypocrites. in many ways i find more in common with my non-christian husband than i do with other christians, but neither am i alone. these are only some of the messages i personally have fought against from pagans of different persuasions. some of this we bring on ourselves. i freely admit that the liberal christians in this country are less organized than the right-wing christians. this means that we have been less effective in getting our perspectives out to the public and we are at fault for this. the message of love has been lost in the media's love affair with the current president (who i'm ashamed to say, claims membership in my own denomination - it just goes to show how different we all are even within the same sect). but there is another side to this too, which is that the media is less interested in peace, love and forgiveness. the right-wing gets a bigger voice in the media because the media is more interested in what they have to say - it will get better ratings.
the other thing is that we ARE hypocrites. i am a BIG HYPOCRITE. i freely acknowledge it. i would also hold that so is every other human being in this country. because one cannot hold high ideals that inspire one to better oneself without failing them sometimes. none of us is perfect. i don't believe that most christians in this country are the xmas/easter variety. in fact, i think those are the minority. i think most christians are fundamentalist or silent on these issues and so what they believe is not broadcast - christians are not supposed to flaunt their goodness.
accusations of hypocrisy are particularly painful to me because they are true and because they seem to say to me "either lower your standards or quit believing altogether". it is a beautiful thing when we can practice what we preach, but the truth is i have never in my life met someone who succeeds in this all the time, and that 20% or 40% or 2 % we get it wrong, someone will jump on us and say "hypocrite". there is no way to be fair about it. unfortunately, i cannot even say "some of us have fallen off the path." because while i believe it, there are different interpretations of what it means to be a good christian. the bible is a complex book full of contradictions. i myself am a pacifist. i honestly believe that it is murder to kill someone in self defense, or in defense of the country. i see nationalism as one of the greatest idolotries of our age. but most of my christian friends would disagree with me and be horrified at my extreme views, despite a deep tradition of pacifism in the first 400 years of christianity. the problem is that the bible often supports more than one view. christians believe different things because we prioritize the messages of the bible differently. so we are hypocrites, and we are hypocrites who argue with one another. but at the end of the day, the bible DOES say both things. the other side DOES have a leg to stand on, and when they do things that i consider "sinful" they can point the finger right back at me.
what this means is that when people who are not christian say "your religion says x and yet you do y, how can this be?" sometimes there is a very good answer. unfortunately the bible DOES say that homosexuality is a sin. it also says what to do about gay people - kill them. so there is a problem here. because people demand that christians do what they are supposed to do, but the bible says they are supposed to kill gays, pagans, witches and disobedient children among others. personally, i believe that it is a mark of progress that we no longer do these horrific things. i believe that we cannot say "unclean" to what god has made clean. god has plainly showered his blessings and his presence on many GBLT's i know. but i DON'T believe that it means i should dismiss the bible or my religion. it means i interpret it. and so do the people who interpret the bible differently than i do. so yes, we are hypocrites. and we are divided. and it is painful. and we inflict it on ourselves. but we are judged for it not only by ourselves, but also by those who don't understand the whole picture. the church is like a man who chopped jalapenos and rubbed his eyes and now flails around for something to ease the pain and hits other people in the process. it is not that the church is not a good man. it is that he has done something stupid and is suffering and can't see how to fix it.
sidhebear asked me a damned interesting question after eltanin brought up pagans bashing christians and i responded. my thanks to him for provoking the hell out of me and making me think.the majority of my pagan friends wouldn't be caught dead
idly bashing christianity or other religions and this isn't the first
time you've brought this up. Who is it in this group that keeps doing it?
and the truth is that i had never really thought about it before. and wasn't aware that i had said anything about it to him. i was just aware of feeling left out and sad (in fact sat. night was the first time i realized other christians were feeling the same way i did). but i put together an answer that was too long to post and so it is going here instead.
um....i don't want to name names. i don't think it is fair, because i don't think a)that it is any ONE person or b) that they even realize they've said something hurtful. for the most part i do not feel people are criticizing ME personally. for the most part. i DO hear people criticizing christians and when they do it generally, i speak up. i make corrections and say "hey that isn't all of us". and they back off. but i still feel the hurt of what they said, because most of the time i don't believe they have been convinced at all. the most painful attacks i have experienced have come from people you don't know.
i agree that mostly it is EXACTLY what you say - people who have been hurt, fighting back. but even though i am not a fundamentalist, i feel responsible for my blind and ignorant christan brothers and sisters. i DO consider myself my brother's keeper, and while i personally do not bash pagans or gays, i feel guilty for what other christians do. we are one body in christ and when part of that body is sick, the whole body suffers.
as to what i have felt personally besides fundamentalist bashing (which i myself have engaged in from time to time i am sorry to say), there are two main issues, some of which is merited, but hurts no less for it.
A)dismissing me/excluding me because i am christian. often this is about the fact that i am in seminary as much as because i am christian. christians who are just easter/xmas types are less threatening than someone who actually has real faith. this has happened a lot. often by strangers, often when i just meet people. many people choose not to know me, trust me, or hear me.
B)thinking all christians are represented by fundamentalism.
if they have a reason to get to know me, it tends to go away, but mostly people don't ask me what i really think. they assume "she thinks the christian thing" and assume they know what that is. this is painful because friends do it without realizing they do it. this is especially true because most of my friends have been deeply hurt by christians and i find them acting from time to time as though i shared the views of those that hurt them.
christians don't believe in magic. christians aren't really connected to the earth. christians are materialistic. christians are all hypocrites. in many ways i find more in common with my non-christian husband than i do with other christians, but neither am i alone. these are only some of the messages i personally have fought against from pagans of different persuasions. some of this we bring on ourselves. i freely admit that the liberal christians in this country are less organized than the right-wing christians. this means that we have been less effective in getting our perspectives out to the public and we are at fault for this. the message of love has been lost in the media's love affair with the current president (who i'm ashamed to say, claims membership in my own denomination - it just goes to show how different we all are even within the same sect). but there is another side to this too, which is that the media is less interested in peace, love and forgiveness. the right-wing gets a bigger voice in the media because the media is more interested in what they have to say - it will get better ratings.
the other thing is that we ARE hypocrites. i am a BIG HYPOCRITE. i freely acknowledge it. i would also hold that so is every other human being in this country. because one cannot hold high ideals that inspire one to better oneself without failing them sometimes. none of us is perfect. i don't believe that most christians in this country are the xmas/easter variety. in fact, i think those are the minority. i think most christians are fundamentalist or silent on these issues and so what they believe is not broadcast - christians are not supposed to flaunt their goodness.
accusations of hypocrisy are particularly painful to me because they are true and because they seem to say to me "either lower your standards or quit believing altogether". it is a beautiful thing when we can practice what we preach, but the truth is i have never in my life met someone who succeeds in this all the time, and that 20% or 40% or 2 % we get it wrong, someone will jump on us and say "hypocrite". there is no way to be fair about it. unfortunately, i cannot even say "some of us have fallen off the path." because while i believe it, there are different interpretations of what it means to be a good christian. the bible is a complex book full of contradictions. i myself am a pacifist. i honestly believe that it is murder to kill someone in self defense, or in defense of the country. i see nationalism as one of the greatest idolotries of our age. but most of my christian friends would disagree with me and be horrified at my extreme views, despite a deep tradition of pacifism in the first 400 years of christianity. the problem is that the bible often supports more than one view. christians believe different things because we prioritize the messages of the bible differently. so we are hypocrites, and we are hypocrites who argue with one another. but at the end of the day, the bible DOES say both things. the other side DOES have a leg to stand on, and when they do things that i consider "sinful" they can point the finger right back at me.
what this means is that when people who are not christian say "your religion says x and yet you do y, how can this be?" sometimes there is a very good answer. unfortunately the bible DOES say that homosexuality is a sin. it also says what to do about gay people - kill them. so there is a problem here. because people demand that christians do what they are supposed to do, but the bible says they are supposed to kill gays, pagans, witches and disobedient children among others. personally, i believe that it is a mark of progress that we no longer do these horrific things. i believe that we cannot say "unclean" to what god has made clean. god has plainly showered his blessings and his presence on many GBLT's i know. but i DON'T believe that it means i should dismiss the bible or my religion. it means i interpret it. and so do the people who interpret the bible differently than i do. so yes, we are hypocrites. and we are divided. and it is painful. and we inflict it on ourselves. but we are judged for it not only by ourselves, but also by those who don't understand the whole picture. the church is like a man who chopped jalapenos and rubbed his eyes and now flails around for something to ease the pain and hits other people in the process. it is not that the church is not a good man. it is that he has done something stupid and is suffering and can't see how to fix it.
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(no subject)
Date: 2006-04-03 01:44 am (UTC)i must admit that i do bash christianity sometimes--this is because i have very serious theological and moral issues with the religion. but then, i expect you have theological differences with paganism--the key is to keep that discourse civil and be willing to agree to disagree.
but i do take your point about not tarring christians with the same brush. whilst i may very strongly disagree with some of the premises of christianity, it's the practices of some christians that really enrage me. i don't think i'm likely to stop complaining about fundamentalists, but it is important to always keep your comments specific--e.g. 'i hate the way many fundamentalists want to deprive gay people of rights', 'i think it's hypocritical for people to ignore children starving to death in africa yet spend all their energies opposing abortion'--these are legitimate criticisms (and there are very, very many legitimate criticisms of pagans, i assure you). it doesn't mean it's okay to say 'i hate the way christians...' as though they were monolithic.
i guess my point is that there is a lot to be said against certain christians and groups of christians who use their religion in ways that are, in my opinion, cruel, hypocritical, and downright evil. pagans are, frankly, pretty powerless and ergo haven't been able to commit large scale evil in the name of religion lately--they might be just as bad if it were a mass religion. so i must support the criticisms of christianity as it is used by powers i oppose. but you are right that it isn't fair to assume any of these views about all, or about any individual christian. and we should be sensitive and specific about any criticisms or complaints we do feel the need to make.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-04-03 11:08 am (UTC)i completely agree with you that there are members of all religions that give the others a bad name. and that there are problems with my own faith. i would love to get together with you in person and talk about them sometime. and i love your point about the starving children.
one of my soapbox issues is that there are so many "pro-life" people who are for capital punishment.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-04-04 05:27 am (UTC)though at least the death penalty argument is in favor of killing the guilty, so does not directly contradict the anti-abortion stance that claims to protect the innocent. personally, i think all killing is wrong, and can only be considered acceptable when it is the lesser of 2 evils, so we're defense of self or others--certainly not the case for the death penalty. even when acceptable it is still wrong, but we don't live in a world where right is always an option. sometimes it's just an issue of doing the least harm.
but yeah, religion is something i think about a great deal. some of the people i most respect and love are christians, many are pagans, atheist or agnostics. personally, i am leery of all dogma and organised religion, but i also recognise that for many people this are very valuable paths to finding their own spirtuality and i have no kind of monopoly on truth.
it would be lovely to chat with you in person some time. of course, i currently live on the other side of the atlantic...but should it ever come up...