Pagans bashing Christians.
Apr. 3rd, 2006 01:29 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
2eclipseSo in another post, ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
sidhebear asked me a damned interesting question after eltanin brought up pagans bashing christians and i responded. my thanks to him for provoking the hell out of me and making me think.
and the truth is that i had never really thought about it before. and wasn't aware that i had said anything about it to him. i was just aware of feeling left out and sad (in fact sat. night was the first time i realized other christians were feeling the same way i did). but i put together an answer that was too long to post and so it is going here instead.
um....i don't want to name names. i don't think it is fair, because i don't think a)that it is any ONE person or b) that they even realize they've said something hurtful. for the most part i do not feel people are criticizing ME personally. for the most part. i DO hear people criticizing christians and when they do it generally, i speak up. i make corrections and say "hey that isn't all of us". and they back off. but i still feel the hurt of what they said, because most of the time i don't believe they have been convinced at all. the most painful attacks i have experienced have come from people you don't know.
i agree that mostly it is EXACTLY what you say - people who have been hurt, fighting back. but even though i am not a fundamentalist, i feel responsible for my blind and ignorant christan brothers and sisters. i DO consider myself my brother's keeper, and while i personally do not bash pagans or gays, i feel guilty for what other christians do. we are one body in christ and when part of that body is sick, the whole body suffers.
as to what i have felt personally besides fundamentalist bashing (which i myself have engaged in from time to time i am sorry to say), there are two main issues, some of which is merited, but hurts no less for it.
A)dismissing me/excluding me because i am christian. often this is about the fact that i am in seminary as much as because i am christian. christians who are just easter/xmas types are less threatening than someone who actually has real faith. this has happened a lot. often by strangers, often when i just meet people. many people choose not to know me, trust me, or hear me.
B)thinking all christians are represented by fundamentalism.
if they have a reason to get to know me, it tends to go away, but mostly people don't ask me what i really think. they assume "she thinks the christian thing" and assume they know what that is. this is painful because friends do it without realizing they do it. this is especially true because most of my friends have been deeply hurt by christians and i find them acting from time to time as though i shared the views of those that hurt them.
christians don't believe in magic. christians aren't really connected to the earth. christians are materialistic. christians are all hypocrites. in many ways i find more in common with my non-christian husband than i do with other christians, but neither am i alone. these are only some of the messages i personally have fought against from pagans of different persuasions. some of this we bring on ourselves. i freely admit that the liberal christians in this country are less organized than the right-wing christians. this means that we have been less effective in getting our perspectives out to the public and we are at fault for this. the message of love has been lost in the media's love affair with the current president (who i'm ashamed to say, claims membership in my own denomination - it just goes to show how different we all are even within the same sect). but there is another side to this too, which is that the media is less interested in peace, love and forgiveness. the right-wing gets a bigger voice in the media because the media is more interested in what they have to say - it will get better ratings.
the other thing is that we ARE hypocrites. i am a BIG HYPOCRITE. i freely acknowledge it. i would also hold that so is every other human being in this country. because one cannot hold high ideals that inspire one to better oneself without failing them sometimes. none of us is perfect. i don't believe that most christians in this country are the xmas/easter variety. in fact, i think those are the minority. i think most christians are fundamentalist or silent on these issues and so what they believe is not broadcast - christians are not supposed to flaunt their goodness.
accusations of hypocrisy are particularly painful to me because they are true and because they seem to say to me "either lower your standards or quit believing altogether". it is a beautiful thing when we can practice what we preach, but the truth is i have never in my life met someone who succeeds in this all the time, and that 20% or 40% or 2 % we get it wrong, someone will jump on us and say "hypocrite". there is no way to be fair about it. unfortunately, i cannot even say "some of us have fallen off the path." because while i believe it, there are different interpretations of what it means to be a good christian. the bible is a complex book full of contradictions. i myself am a pacifist. i honestly believe that it is murder to kill someone in self defense, or in defense of the country. i see nationalism as one of the greatest idolotries of our age. but most of my christian friends would disagree with me and be horrified at my extreme views, despite a deep tradition of pacifism in the first 400 years of christianity. the problem is that the bible often supports more than one view. christians believe different things because we prioritize the messages of the bible differently. so we are hypocrites, and we are hypocrites who argue with one another. but at the end of the day, the bible DOES say both things. the other side DOES have a leg to stand on, and when they do things that i consider "sinful" they can point the finger right back at me.
what this means is that when people who are not christian say "your religion says x and yet you do y, how can this be?" sometimes there is a very good answer. unfortunately the bible DOES say that homosexuality is a sin. it also says what to do about gay people - kill them. so there is a problem here. because people demand that christians do what they are supposed to do, but the bible says they are supposed to kill gays, pagans, witches and disobedient children among others. personally, i believe that it is a mark of progress that we no longer do these horrific things. i believe that we cannot say "unclean" to what god has made clean. god has plainly showered his blessings and his presence on many GBLT's i know. but i DON'T believe that it means i should dismiss the bible or my religion. it means i interpret it. and so do the people who interpret the bible differently than i do. so yes, we are hypocrites. and we are divided. and it is painful. and we inflict it on ourselves. but we are judged for it not only by ourselves, but also by those who don't understand the whole picture. the church is like a man who chopped jalapenos and rubbed his eyes and now flails around for something to ease the pain and hits other people in the process. it is not that the church is not a good man. it is that he has done something stupid and is suffering and can't see how to fix it.
sidhebear asked me a damned interesting question after eltanin brought up pagans bashing christians and i responded. my thanks to him for provoking the hell out of me and making me think.the majority of my pagan friends wouldn't be caught dead
idly bashing christianity or other religions and this isn't the first
time you've brought this up. Who is it in this group that keeps doing it?
and the truth is that i had never really thought about it before. and wasn't aware that i had said anything about it to him. i was just aware of feeling left out and sad (in fact sat. night was the first time i realized other christians were feeling the same way i did). but i put together an answer that was too long to post and so it is going here instead.
um....i don't want to name names. i don't think it is fair, because i don't think a)that it is any ONE person or b) that they even realize they've said something hurtful. for the most part i do not feel people are criticizing ME personally. for the most part. i DO hear people criticizing christians and when they do it generally, i speak up. i make corrections and say "hey that isn't all of us". and they back off. but i still feel the hurt of what they said, because most of the time i don't believe they have been convinced at all. the most painful attacks i have experienced have come from people you don't know.
i agree that mostly it is EXACTLY what you say - people who have been hurt, fighting back. but even though i am not a fundamentalist, i feel responsible for my blind and ignorant christan brothers and sisters. i DO consider myself my brother's keeper, and while i personally do not bash pagans or gays, i feel guilty for what other christians do. we are one body in christ and when part of that body is sick, the whole body suffers.
as to what i have felt personally besides fundamentalist bashing (which i myself have engaged in from time to time i am sorry to say), there are two main issues, some of which is merited, but hurts no less for it.
A)dismissing me/excluding me because i am christian. often this is about the fact that i am in seminary as much as because i am christian. christians who are just easter/xmas types are less threatening than someone who actually has real faith. this has happened a lot. often by strangers, often when i just meet people. many people choose not to know me, trust me, or hear me.
B)thinking all christians are represented by fundamentalism.
if they have a reason to get to know me, it tends to go away, but mostly people don't ask me what i really think. they assume "she thinks the christian thing" and assume they know what that is. this is painful because friends do it without realizing they do it. this is especially true because most of my friends have been deeply hurt by christians and i find them acting from time to time as though i shared the views of those that hurt them.
christians don't believe in magic. christians aren't really connected to the earth. christians are materialistic. christians are all hypocrites. in many ways i find more in common with my non-christian husband than i do with other christians, but neither am i alone. these are only some of the messages i personally have fought against from pagans of different persuasions. some of this we bring on ourselves. i freely admit that the liberal christians in this country are less organized than the right-wing christians. this means that we have been less effective in getting our perspectives out to the public and we are at fault for this. the message of love has been lost in the media's love affair with the current president (who i'm ashamed to say, claims membership in my own denomination - it just goes to show how different we all are even within the same sect). but there is another side to this too, which is that the media is less interested in peace, love and forgiveness. the right-wing gets a bigger voice in the media because the media is more interested in what they have to say - it will get better ratings.
the other thing is that we ARE hypocrites. i am a BIG HYPOCRITE. i freely acknowledge it. i would also hold that so is every other human being in this country. because one cannot hold high ideals that inspire one to better oneself without failing them sometimes. none of us is perfect. i don't believe that most christians in this country are the xmas/easter variety. in fact, i think those are the minority. i think most christians are fundamentalist or silent on these issues and so what they believe is not broadcast - christians are not supposed to flaunt their goodness.
accusations of hypocrisy are particularly painful to me because they are true and because they seem to say to me "either lower your standards or quit believing altogether". it is a beautiful thing when we can practice what we preach, but the truth is i have never in my life met someone who succeeds in this all the time, and that 20% or 40% or 2 % we get it wrong, someone will jump on us and say "hypocrite". there is no way to be fair about it. unfortunately, i cannot even say "some of us have fallen off the path." because while i believe it, there are different interpretations of what it means to be a good christian. the bible is a complex book full of contradictions. i myself am a pacifist. i honestly believe that it is murder to kill someone in self defense, or in defense of the country. i see nationalism as one of the greatest idolotries of our age. but most of my christian friends would disagree with me and be horrified at my extreme views, despite a deep tradition of pacifism in the first 400 years of christianity. the problem is that the bible often supports more than one view. christians believe different things because we prioritize the messages of the bible differently. so we are hypocrites, and we are hypocrites who argue with one another. but at the end of the day, the bible DOES say both things. the other side DOES have a leg to stand on, and when they do things that i consider "sinful" they can point the finger right back at me.
what this means is that when people who are not christian say "your religion says x and yet you do y, how can this be?" sometimes there is a very good answer. unfortunately the bible DOES say that homosexuality is a sin. it also says what to do about gay people - kill them. so there is a problem here. because people demand that christians do what they are supposed to do, but the bible says they are supposed to kill gays, pagans, witches and disobedient children among others. personally, i believe that it is a mark of progress that we no longer do these horrific things. i believe that we cannot say "unclean" to what god has made clean. god has plainly showered his blessings and his presence on many GBLT's i know. but i DON'T believe that it means i should dismiss the bible or my religion. it means i interpret it. and so do the people who interpret the bible differently than i do. so yes, we are hypocrites. and we are divided. and it is painful. and we inflict it on ourselves. but we are judged for it not only by ourselves, but also by those who don't understand the whole picture. the church is like a man who chopped jalapenos and rubbed his eyes and now flails around for something to ease the pain and hits other people in the process. it is not that the church is not a good man. it is that he has done something stupid and is suffering and can't see how to fix it.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2006-04-03 12:48 am (UTC)I don't believe that there is as large a large body of argument against hot women getting it on together, which strengthens my position on this.
Now, me, I don't so much believe in god, but a book is a different thing entirely. I don't have to believe in books; I can read them. I don't have to believe in people; I can argue with them. The nice thing about theological debate is that, for some reason, the debates tend to be repeated often enough to be recorded. Remind me to look some of these up for you. It's fun because most of them are about pork.
Mmmmmm. Pork.
Anyway, hypocrisy knows no bounds, a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds, and religious debate seems a bit like mutual masturbation without a payoff.
Tell your pagan friends to stop insulting Christians. That's my job, and I'm not going to give it up without a fight. I'm telling you God wants me on that wall. God needs me on that wall.
you are always entertaining.
Date: 2006-04-03 10:51 am (UTC)biblically, there are several passages that offer exceptions to hebrew law. and how much of hebrew law christians are exempt from is one of the many issues that christians argue about. Acts 10:28 is generally interpreted not to mean that homosexuals are clean (although i believe it does mean this), but that gentiles are clean and that we should hang out with them and eat with them and treat them like people - something i also agree with.
it doesn't say much about being able to ignore any other laws. there are some other passages that are relevant though.
matthew 15:10-20 specifically says food laws and hygiene laws may be ignored. matthew upholds the rest of hebrew law. dismissal of hygiene laws is also in luke 11:37-41 and he allows for healing on the sabbath in 13:15-17. as far as i know (and bear with me on this because my gospel parallels book seems to have been lost in the move), these are the only laws that are refuted directly. there are a few others (mainly in luke) may be interpreted to allow for a looser following of the law -luke 12:4-12 - but that is an interpretation and not all christians adhere to it.
Re: you are always entertaining.
Date: 2006-04-03 11:43 am (UTC)The interpretation of 10:28 that leaves buggery off doomsville depends, in good part, on Jesus himself going apeshit on the subject of divorce. It's a supporting pillar to the argument that Mosaic Law wasn't completely undone. Funny thing, though, is that Jesus kept making it clear that the rules weren't enough.
Luke is (of course) the nice one on the subject of healing on the sabbath. I forget where it is in John, but that version of the event has Jesus completely bugging out. Dude did not have a handle on his temper. At all. John's version also has a nice, short little rant about the idiocy of following simple rules without thinking. Neat stuff.
It's a good story, really. Dysfunctional working-class asshole with a heart of gold changes world, gets put down by the man, wins anyway. Total wish fulfillment and you get to eat bacon. Never, ever underestimate the selling power of bacon.