(no subject)

[2eclipse]

yesterday i was listening to an interview on the craftlit podcast with heather ordover. she was talking to the two guys who wrote plato and a platypus walk into a bar, a book about philosophy in humor....and these guys are not only into philosophy, they are into theology as well. could we say this is up my alley? why yes, indeed we could.
anyway, they got into a discussion about faith vs. belief and how heather runs into people who say jews don't believe in jesus....which is a flat out ridiculous statement. jews certainly believe there was a man named jesus who lived about 2000 years ago. the romans have records of crucifying him. jews don't believe jesus was the son of God. this is an entirely different statement. which just goes to show that christians are as guilty of not saying what they mean as everyone else.
however, they went on in the interview to talk about whether there is a difference between faith and belief. and this is what was interesting to me, because there is this lovely and brilliant british theologian named e.p. sanders who talks about this exact issue.
english comes from two languages - anglo-saxon and normon french. in many cases this adds great richness to our language due to having many words for the same thing. we have words like pork and beef in addition to swine and cattle. the germans use the same words for both the animal and the food form. as sanders points out, calling our food swine-flesh, as they do, would strike english speakers as gross.
however, there are places in english where one form of speech has simply driven the other out. the case of faith and belief is one of them. we have no verb form of faith. "to believe" has taken its place. we can say "to have faith". but this is passive voice and misses out on the strength of what it means to BELIEVE in something. but in truth, "to believe" has the connotation of opinion, and faith does not. faith is more like the knowledge that comes from the heart, rather than the head. we have faith that our loved ones love us...and it isn't just from their actions, there is faith involved. we have faith in the direction of our govenrment (or maybe not just now). we have faith that people can change...these are not mere issues of opinion. certainly they are issues of opinion, but they are not MERE issues of opinion. there is something else behind what we feel when we care passionately about something we cannot prove. when we see something in a person, but we cannot say what it is. it is knowledge of the heart, not of the head. it is faith.

Comments

[2eclipse.livejournal.com]

wow.
even over a week later and off the meds this still feels really judgemental.
did you mean it that way? from what i know of you i have a hard time believing you do, but this really hurts.
i do not post these things by way of trying to change your idealogy, but by way of trying to communicate mine, and the richness i find in it. i also do not go to your journal and tell you about how i think atheism is sad and lonely and based on a false premise that everything in this world can be measured by hard, scientific data or some form of empirical evidence...because the truth is that i have never been an atheist, and so i don't know. if you respect the person i am, please try grant me the same respect - that you don't know my experience with faith and therefore cannot properly judge its validity. you don't have to agree. just please be nice about disagreeing.

[lucifermourning.livejournal.com]

i would like to apologise.

the trouble with internets is that sometimes we (or at least i) write things without fully considering how they sound to the reader.

i never meant to offend you or be hurtful and, re-reading my comments, i understand how they came across that way, and i am sorry.

i do struggle with how to feel about faith, as i know people whose faith is a very positive influence on their lives, and have to respect that influence. however, i don't really "get" faith myself, and some expression of "faith" terrify me (e.g. fundamentalists of many religions), which is why i tend to go back and forth in my own mind about how to approach the issue.

i am sorry that i made comments that hurt you.

[2eclipse.livejournal.com]

apology more than accepted. i know you as being a kind sort of person, and had a hard time believing you meant your comments that way - but i felt i had to respond.
i completely understand that not everyone gets faith...because i was agnostic for a long time myself and couldn't see the point of christianity. as it is now, i don't have much choice in the matter, but that's okay with me. if you ever have any questions, i am happy to talk, but i don't assume my questions were the the same as yours.
for what it's worth, i am completely in agreement with you about how terrifying fundamentalist ideologies of any kind (including atheism) is. people do horrible things because they believe it is God's will...which is one of the reasons i'm a pacifist. i don't believe i'm fit to know the difference between violence in my name vs. in God's name.

[lucifermourning.livejournal.com]

i think it's probably best for me to not say anymore on the topic, at least over the internet. in person things like tone and expression can come across, but without them i think it's impossible to not sound overly harsh. (e.g. a statement meant to invite response and questioning/explanation sounds like a judgement.)

i do like to talk about religion because it has fascinated me for many years, but it's very hard to have a sensible discussion when you disagree and cannot make your points exactly clear (assuming you care about giving offense!)

[2eclipse.livejournal.com]

whatever suits you is fine.
i do have points to make that are clear. they may just not be the ones you are looking for. not everyone has the same issues with religion.

[lucifermourning.livejournal.com]

i wasn't talking about your points! i just don't think i will be able to say what i mean without potentially offending.

i very rarely have religious discussions with religious people, so i am rather wary of saying something that could upset you. i feel like i could either try and explain what i mean, and possibly cause offense, or end the discussion.