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church

i'm fasting for lent.
at home and with my girls is where i feel the love of God these days, not at church.

i'm having such trouble with my church right now that i don't feel connected to the love of God at all there right now. i've thought about writing to the senior pastor, but he has already talked to me about my personal issues with him. he is a stumbling block for me in his lack of welcome to communion. he has heard me and does not seem to care. what he says is that, "i just don't understand why anyone would want to come to communion who didn't want to know christ better." i look at my younger self, who had no understanding really of why christ was important and say, "it doesn't matter if you understand or not. it only matters that the table be open unconditionally. completely unconditionally. God puts no conditions on his love for us." and the congregation wants me to fit their minnesota mold where nobody shares their nastier selves in favor of pretending they are all good christians. christ was the only good christian. everyone else just tries.
i am having trouble belonging to a church that doesn't help me feel like i belong. i resent the idea that some of my feelings are 'not okay" there and that they have no tolerance for the darker side of human nature. to me that means they deny their own sinfulness.
i went and joined choir for a while to try to get to know people better.
the choir is pretty good musically, and they do interesting music. but they are all made of stone.
there is no sense of community between the choir. or if there is, i'm shut out of it. the people who like me still keep me at arms length. they come and say nice things like, "heather i'm so glad you're here." but i know that they have no idea who i am. and that's really the problem in general. i think the church doesn't know me and doesn't want to know me, except for maybe 3 or 4 people. and that's not enough for me. i want to feel like i have friends in church. i want to feel like there is real caring that doesn't shrink from real feelings and knows and understands that God has a sense of humor. i blame methodism and i blame minnesota and probably myself for not being more charming and wonderful. and yet God is supposed to love you when you are not charming and wonderful. and a methodist church in minnesota is what i want.
there are a lot of things i like about my church. i like how progressive it is. i like that it does a lot. i like...maybe 4 or 5 people there who i feel have let me in. but i feel like they are all afraid to argue with me. how can the embodiment of christ be afraid to argue when there is so much to argue about?!
and i have this entitled idea like there should be a church within 5 miles of me that is good and real and full of discipleship.
i'm not ready to give up on this place yet, but i do not rule it out.

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Mrs. HJA, I completely understand.
When I moved to Mpls for Bible College, I tried for months to find a church that felt like family... I prefer small churches because they usually do. I finally found one, a half bloody hour away from where I lived, and besides my hiatus for grad school, I have been going there for 5 or 6 years now (however long I have been in Minnesota).

Church hunting sucks, Mrs. HJA, but it sounds like maybe that is your only option right now...

call me crazy, but have you checked out any churches around the U of M? my experiences (limited but still there) found that most campus ministries are more open as they usually have a more diverse congregation from the diverse student body.

just a thought.

Church at its best is about community, and community doesn't always map to your zip code. This is not a terrible thing, and Protestants are in some ways very lucky. Were you Catholic, parish hunting is often frowned upon.

As for communion, it is just what it says: union with your community. If this church is not your community, then communion with them might not be beneficial for either of you. Communion has little to do with your relationship with God; that is between you and God. Communion is about your relationship with others; your attestation to shared values. That should be done with people who you actually share values with.

Like any bad relationship, sometimes you have to give a little, and sometimes you are just incompatible and should move on. Only you know which is the case here.

One on level or another, every church I've ever been to in this country has had the same or a similar problem.

People blame german/scandanavian heritage, midwestern upbringing, and a myriad of other things to no avail.

I know there are good churches out there, but I have yet to find one. :(

i'm not sure at all that it is to no avail. i've found several communities in my life that embody the concept of martin luther king jr.'s beloved community. my church camp growing up, my church in ardmore pa, my seminary...and i have a strong suspician that foundry umc in dc is another one.
i think you give up too easily and maybe that you don't want one badly enough to keep looking.

i agree with everything you say except that God has nothing to do with community.
i strongly believe that we were created for community with God and with one another. i take seriously the scripture that says we are the body of christ on earth. we are our children's first experience of the love of God. piss poor, but we do the best we can. if we are good christians, than we embody that love to one another as well.
the communion table is God's table, and we go for communion with Him, not just with one another.

this is not a bad idea.
i've been to the one across the street from the guthrie, but that's the only one in the city i've been to.
i just have to get over my entitled attitude about having something within a 5 minute drive.

yeah, it's stinky.
i haven't quite given up on my church yet.
maybe i just need to argue with the preacher a bit more.

Arguing with the pastor will get things accomplished, I am sure... :/ (that is me being sarcastic!) :)

I understand your frustration. My own is that many Presbyterians seem to view church as a place to network and find business contacts. Most of the other churches I've tried have been even worse.

I often find I have more faith after a solo trek in the woods then after a service. I'm still not sure if that is good or bad.

If not for a couple of individual pastors who have shown the power of a truly good church and ministry I would be even more jaded then I already am.

you live in a metropolis. theres close to, what 2 million ppl all told in the cities and the surrounding burbs?

i live in BFNowhere. even i have problems getting to places in 5 mins. yeah on a good day i can cross the length of the town in 5-7 mins, but i still have times its take 10 mins to go 6 blocks.

youll get over that 5 min thing. ;p

I sent you a copy of the e-mail I sent my pastor. understand that what I wrote is what I mean when I say "arguing". I try never to escalate unless I have to. comes from having therapist parents.
do you think it is a convincing argument?

i would say it is a bad thing - but on their part, not yours. i also experience a lot of connection with God in nature. and no wonder! it is part of his beautiful creation! what we forget is that we are also creatures; that we are also part of God's creation. and that we ought therefore to live our lives with a sense of the sacred around us, to treat one another and ourselves as holy, beloved children of God. it sounds like your church doesn't know that, but i know a lot of presbyterians who do know it.
the answer to this sort of problem (and my sort of problem) is the small group. my church used to be very very good at small groups, but we've gotten lousy at it, and i can't work up the motivation to start one with the people who have shown the kind of openness i seek. i will have to get past my grief and anger and get some more self-confidence first.

My greek and hebrew is a bit rusty, but I took two years of each, so I think this is right...
κοινωνία = koinonia (kinda.) It means, at its simplest form "community" but in practice, it is way more than that. The New Testament church did everything together... Ate, slept (now don't look at me like that!), worked, and built together... Including worship, prayer, and their whole experience of God...

Just like the Greek word συναγωγή, which is synagogue, and in Hebrew, בית כנסת, which means to gather together... In Hebrew it is like "assembly hall"... This is the foundation of the Hebrew religious experience, after worship in the temple ceased. "To gather together..." This stuff doesn't talk about God, but that is where God is worshipped... God is worshipped 7 days a week wherever you are, and on šhabbat (Sabbath) is when we chill out, and hang out (koinonia) with our brothers and sisters and worship communally... I think that the fellowship you have there is almost as important as what takes place there. Sunday is not the day of worshiping God, that is seven days a week, 24 hours a day. Sunday is when you gather, and learn, and eat, and fellowship, and just be with eachother in God's presence... Maybe we look at church a little different these days.

Communion... same exact word as koinonia.

Communion means fellowship and a close relationship with Christians, individuals, a church, communing with God. That is what Jesus was talking about when he gave them wine and bread. He was saying fellowship with eachother while you fellowship with God. Do this WHENEVER YOU MEET (not only on the first sunday of the month).

I think the Methodists have it right. ANYONE can take communion, even if you are saved, unsaved, have been baptized, haven't been... Buddhist, Mormon, Hindu, Muslim... They just say something like anyone can take if if they want to live in relationship with God and with one another. I am saying this, and I am not Methodist... Though my denomination came about from a revival in the methodist church...

Yes, I AM a Sem nerd.

i agree with you (though i new most of that stuff, i had a year and a half of attic greek in undergrad).
it's good stuff. it's WHY we base our faith and sense of meaning in community.
in my experience, most methodist preachers DON'T use any if statements when opening communion. they simply say "welcome". and that strikes me as being the true grace of God. did you read my letter?

I did. It was good stuff... Not combative at all, which is important.

wait, this guy is a Methodist... right?

If he is , take hope... he can always be moved in June at annual conferance.

Also point him to P138 in "The Discipline of the United Methodist Church" I wonder how not allowing persons who are not Christan to take communion "...Enables all persons to participate in the life of the Church..."

Read it for yourself and see what you think.

*goes back to his book of common prayer*

ah, but to play devil's advocate (Which i think is appropriate for the conversation.) The ancient Xian Church did ask all non-baptised persons to leave their love feast, would close the door, and then take part in the Eucharist.

The tradition would seem to point to needing to be a baptised Xian to recieve the Eucharist.

I think it will be interesting to sit back and see how the Methodists will hammer this issue out at General Conferance 08. One of the resolutions being brought forward is to restrict the Eucharist to only those who have a baptism. Thus and Xian could take it... but not any religion.

And what was Jesus talking about when he gave them the bread and said "This is my body"... well that all depends on what your definition of is, is.... doesn't it? Ah, and we laughed at Clinton for saying that. But the Church has been fighting over what "is" is for centuries.

The once a month thing i don't like either... but i belive that comes out of the circuit rider tradition, no?

My dear you should belive "the Lord's Supper is a representation of our redemption, a memorial of the sufferings and death of Christ, and a token of love and union which Christians have with Chris with one another. Those who rightly, worthily and in faith eat the broken bread and drink the blessed cup partake of the body and blood of Christ in a spiritual manner until he comes." Book of Disciple Article VI of Doctrinal STandards.

The Eucarist is about you and God and you and one another... but it sounds youre having a greater time with community... which is something all together.

((can you guess what book i've been reading for fun lately?))

i do believe that. but i also believe that communion is about communion with one another, not just with God, and agree with

vileone that i'm the only one who can decide when to give up and go looking for another church and when to stay and stick it out and try and get my church to be more open.
what "worthy" means is also in dispute.
i am not in favor of closing communion.

it does, but i would be glad if we did it more often.

I think"rightly and worthily and in faith" beg definition....but I hope nobody defines them. I would rather leave them open to interpretation. (especially all those that agree with my own :) ) I hope the Methodist General conference does not decide to require baptism for partaking in communion. Keeping communion wholly open leaves room in us for mystery and for the action of the spirit.
About finding a church...On the one hand, I have found that I am beginning to claim the church I am in only as I spend more time there and invest in it more...get to know more people personally. I have been doing this mainly through study groups like Disciple's and, now, "Living with the Questions" and "Confronting the Controversies". At first I didn't think I would like this church too much because I thought it would be too conservative. I am only finding open minded people through these small groups. This is also the only avenue I have found where church members can get to know me. This church is not in my neighborhood and I miss that because most members know one another through other community connections-especially their kids schools.Still, I am glad I have now stayed long enough to begin to feel I have good relationships. (At first when I was in the choir I felt their greetings were only lip service...the first three years probably). After awhile, I found my way in through humor mainly. As I am writing this I find myself wondering if people in churches don't sometimes become so used to people coming and going that they hold back a little...to see if you really want to become part of them.
On the other hand, if I were willing to travel even farther from home, I might find churches with memberships in which it is easier to find people who are more like me and thus easier to get to know and to let know me. City churches, especially reconciling congregations like Foundry and Dumbarton are good bets. I agree that churches in University neighborhoods are good possibilities also.
I also agree that you are the only one who will know if you should go out looking for a new church.
Churches that are actively trying to engage young adults in their 20s and 30s are also possibly more open and discipleship oriented. I might look for those churches that offer special programs for people of that age group (like "Beginnings" or ???? I can't remember the name of the other one I learned about).

I'm not implying that I am in my 20s or 30s :)..but if I WERE I might seek churches that have those kind of programs. At the age I am now I might still look for a church with those programs because such churches tend to be open to change and possibilities. (Of course they might also prefer less traditional worship than I like)

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Oh MAN I understand! :)

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κοινωνία

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